Daming 1805

Chapter 425 I Can't Learn From Daming

After the basic provisions of the aircraft carrier were finalized, the negotiations on the Western-Taiwan naval treaty were slightly suspended for two days.

Two days later, the meeting was held again, and Talleyrand, as the chairperson, spoke first:
"The main agenda of today's meeting is to determine the specific specifications of the cruiser.

"According to the previously determined specifications of capital ships, armored cruisers have been included in the category of capital ships.

"Warships with a full load displacement of more than 160 tons and a main gun with a caliber of more than [-] mm should be regarded as capital ships.

"Then the standard upper limit for cruisers stipulated in our treaty is naturally that the full-load displacement does not exceed 160 tons, and the caliber of the main gun does not exceed [-] mm.

"The question now is where the lower limit of cruisers should be, and how to distinguish them from lower-tier destroyers.

"Let me first talk about what we have learned about Daming, which can be used as a reference target for us to formulate standards.

"The ship system of the Ming Dynasty Navy has undergone tremendous changes in the past seven years.

"The new high-speed cruiser, which was born at the same time as the brand-new high-speed battleship, has a tonnage of more than [-] tons. This has actually reached the standard of a traditional capital ship, and traditional armored cruisers cannot reach this level.

"The speeds of these new cruisers are all over thirty knots, but they are only equipped with 160mm main guns.

"The actual missions of these ships in Ming's naval system should be close to those of five or six thousand ton secondary cruisers in the traditional navy, and they are called ordinary 'cruisers' in Ming Dynasty.

"Then there is the new destroyer that Ming calls a 'high-speed destroyer'. Its full-load displacement has already exceeded [-] tons, and it is likely to be close to [-] tons. This is obviously the level of a cruiser in our European navies.

"The situation of these high-speed destroyers in Ming Dynasty is similar to that of high-level cruisers. Their speed has also reached 120 knots, and they can fight with the main fleet, but the caliber of their main guns does not exceed [-]mm.

"The last is Ming's new escort destroyer, which is a small ship with a displacement of less than 25 tons, a speed of less than [-] knots, and a main gun with a caliber of less than [-]mm. It is usually used for patrol and escort missions. It is called an escort or frigate for short.

"In the traditional naval ship system, the tonnage of destroyers is usually only about [-] tons...

"Our navies of the European countries are building their own naval systems with reference to Ming's new ship system, but the situation of the European countries is very different from that of Ming, so we should not blindly copy them.

"To put it bluntly, we don't have the ability to use a [-]-ton ship as an ordinary cruiser, nor do we have the ability to use a [-]-ton ship as a destroyer.

"So, I still suggest that we continue to refer to our previous plan for dealing with capital ships, and list high-speed destroyers in the sense of Ming Dynasty as our cruisers.

"That is to say, combat ships with a full load displacement of 120 to 160 tons and a main gun with a caliber of [-] to [-] mm are all included in the category of cruisers.

"Small ships with a full load displacement of no more than 120 tons and a main gun caliber of no more than [-] mm are defined as our naval treaty destroyers.

"The difference between the ships used for patrol and escort and destroyers is too small, and they are merged into the category of treaty destroyers.

"If you have no opinion, we will use this standard as the premise to discuss the total tonnage standard of cruisers."

After Talleyrand finished speaking, he looked at the other representatives and waited for their reactions.

The representatives of various countries did not speak out immediately after listening, but whispered to their companions.

Most delegates did not see any major issues with this specification.

What Talleyrand said was very straightforward. Seven years ago, traditional destroyers were only about [-] tons, traditional cruisers were usually only [-] to [-] tons, and armored cruisers may not exceed [-] tons.

In fact, during the World War, the tonnage of Britain's largest capital ship was just over [-] tons.

After the Great War, the Ming Navy's ship class expanded rapidly, and it directly opened up a big class with the traditional navy.

Now ships of [-] tons are just conventional cruisers, and ships of less than [-] tons are considered destroyers.

Although all countries in Thailand and the West are learning from Ming Dynasty, they have no way to match up on this issue.

Otherwise, the proposal to include armored cruisers in the category of capital ships would not be so easy to pass.

The actual effect of this suggestion is to directly put the "heavy cruisers" that have not yet appeared in this world into capital ships from the official definition.

In the original history, heavy cruisers were regarded as secondary capital ships in countries that were not the strongest navy.

Now they may not have the title of "heavy cruiser" anymore, but they have got a more official status.

If a country is willing to build a ship of this level, there will be no historical restrictions.

From the full-load displacement of 160 tons, the caliber of the artillery caliber of 360 mm upwards, to the full-load displacement of [-] tons, and the range of the artillery caliber of [-] mm can be fully defined.

However, as long as they are experienced naval generals and engineers, they will gradually discover the existence of "medium-sized ship traps".

It is conceivable that the final choice of most naval countries should be to build high-speed battleships at the highest level, instead of engaging in "large, advanced, and heavy" cruisers.

The "heavy cruiser" in history is actually a product with time limitations that was born out of the naval treaty.

The new proposals put forward by the French with reference to this premise have not met with any opposition, and representatives from various countries have successively expressed that they can accept such a premise for discussion.

There must be a premise to discuss.

Talleyrand confirmed the opinions of all representatives in turn, announced that this standard will be included in the formal treaty text after refinement, and then enter the next link:
"Based on the current situation and the standards we have formulated, our original armored cruisers and the new high-speed advanced cruisers that may be built with reference to the design of Ming Dynasty are all included in the category of capital ships, occupying the tonnage of capital ships.

"At the same time, aircraft carriers, which should originally belong to the category of cruisers, have also been assigned a dedicated tonnage share.

"So the tonnage of our cruisers should be limited enough relative to the actual situation.

"My suggestion is that the total tonnage of cruisers in all countries should not exceed [-] tons."

Now that the specific amount was discussed, Talleyrand's words would not get so much approval.

Lucia's Wedemeyer objected almost without hesitation:

"The purpose of including armored cruisers and high-level cruisers as capital ships is understood by everyone, even if I don't say anything.

"Maybe there will be countries that use the tonnage of capital ships to build new large cruisers, but we, Lucia, will not do it.

"Most of our Lucia's 32-ton battleships are only new high-speed battleships.

"So in our opinion, the tonnage of cruisers stipulated in the treaty should meet our actual needs.

"We're asking for at least a 24-ton cruiser-only tonnage share."

Hardenberg of Prussia hesitated for a few seconds, and then agreed:
"Our capital ship tonnage will also be normally used to build capital ships, so we also support the relaxation of the cruiser tonnage limit to 24 tons."

The Prussians agreed with Lucia, but the Lucia was not happy at all.

Approval in this situation does not at all indicate how good the relationship between the Prussians and the Lucians is. On the contrary, it shows that the Prussians regard the Lucians as potential competitors that should be actively targeted.

You build a 32-ton capital ship, and I also build a 32-ton capital ship. You want a 24-ton cruiser, and I also want a 24-ton cruiser. I can’t discount any of them.

I will follow you whatever you do!

So Lucia's Wedemeyer frowned subconsciously when he heard Prussia's Hardenberg's voice.

Hardenberg returned a very polite smile, as if to say "don't thank me for your support".

Talleyrand frowned and glanced at the British and Spanish, wondering if you would come out and say a few words?
The situation of the French and the English and the Spaniards is similar to that of Prussia and Lucia.

Both are actual relationships that may be competitors, but tend to agree with each other on the goals of the negotiations.

So although Grenville in the UK felt uncomfortable, he still cooperated after receiving Talleyrand's eyes:

"The tonnage of the new generation of high-speed battleships has generally reached the [-]-ton level, and there is a huge gap between cruisers and other escort ships.

"So the tonnage ratio of new cruisers to capital ships cannot refer to the traditional ratio of capital ships to escort ships.

"The 24-ton cruiser, plus the 32-ton aircraft carrier, has exceeded the [-]-ton capital ship.

"This is obviously beyond the actual needs of a normal navy.

"Let me just say this, if you Lucians really build ordinary cruisers with a total of 24 tons, you will not be able to play their actual role at all.

"After all, you Lucians don't have a huge, complex, and scattered colony like the Ming Dynasty.

"The limit of 24 tons is placed in the current navy, which means there is no limit.

"According to our experience, after excluding advanced cruisers, compared with 32-ton battleships, an ordinary cruiser with a total tonnage of [-] tons is completely sufficient.

"Even our United Kingdom, which has the three colonies of South Tianzhu, Southwest Mexico, and America, thinks that a total of [-] tons of cruisers is enough.

"So we in the UK propose to limit the gross tonnage of cruisers to [-] tons."

In fact, for the United Kingdom, a cruiser of [-] tons is of course enough.

But Grenville knows that now is the stage of bargaining, and he either calls for [-] tons or [-] tons.

Lucia people must continue to call up.

I and the French will back down a bit later, and finally set the data in the range of [-] to [-] to [-].

In addition, the United Kingdom has already planned to use part of the capital ship tonnage to build cruisers, and this share is almost just right.

However, the sense of superiority of the traditional naval country implied in Grenville's words made the Lucians a little unhappy.

Wedemeyer also didn't shy away from it, and from another angle, he went back from the ridicule very straightforwardly:

"The standard for a cruiser is [-] tons, and the share of [-] tons is only ten ships.

"The standard for high-speed battleships is 32 tons, and we can already build eight of them with a capital ship share of [-] tons.

"In addition, there are [-]-ton aircraft carriers, and [-] tons per ship is already considered a capital ship.

"So eleven capital ships are matched with ten cruisers. Is this how your British naval experience is allocated to a fleet?

"According to the Ming craftsman's suggestion, for us, Lucia, a [-]-ton cruiser is definitely not enough.

"You British... It's not that you don't need a 24-ton cruiser, but you can't?"

This is very straightforward. It is simply impossible for a 32-ton capital ship to match a [-]-ton cruiser.

A battleship of [-] tons, a cruiser of [-] tons, and two or three destroyers of less than [-] tons?

I am afraid that no admiral will match his fleet like this.

Of course, the British will not match the fleet in this way, because the British intend to use the tonnage of the capital ship to build cruisers.

But this kind of thing is tacit, even if you say it, you will be ashamed, so you can only hold it in your heart and feel uncomfortable.

Grenville's expression was a bit ugly, it was uncomfortable to negotiate without money and resources.

If the state of Britain is good, if there is no Yinzhou War, Britain should be able to build a navy like the Lucians, right?
How should I answer now?It's impossible to tell the truth, no matter how I say it, I find it ugly.

Grenville once again felt that the prime minister was quite tired, or he should resign and retire.

I am 53 years old, and it is time to retire.

The French and Spaniards certainly wanted to see the British deflated.

But now the three countries can be regarded as on the same front in negotiations.

When Grenville was stunned by the Lucians, Manuel, the representative of Spain, took up the conversation:
"24 tons may be a bit small, but your [-] tons is really endless, and it is really equivalent to unlimited.

"So the standard of a 24-ton cruiser is impossible.

"Our suggestion is to relax it to 16 tons at most."

Manuel took the initiative to give in, and the margin was very large.

Then the French and the British immediately looked at the Spaniard, the meaning in their eyes seemed to say, are you Spaniards rich?

Then the representatives of the two countries realized that the state of Spain might really be better than that of their two countries.

The consumption of Spain in the years of suppressing bandits in Mexico should not be as good as the war between the two countries in Northern Yinzhou.

Moreover, when Spain gave up the colony of Nanyinzhou, it took away a lot of people and money.

The Spaniards also made a fortune in the trade of reselling Mexican slaves from Nanyinzhou to the United States.

However, Manuel's concession is the Spaniard's own concession and cannot represent Britain and France.

Britain and France can now stand up against Manuel's proposal.

But Grenville was tired and didn't want to interrupt, so he didn't say anything in the end.

But at last Talleyrand could not help but speak:

"16 tons is a bit much... Our idea in France is not to exceed 12 tons..."

As soon as Talleyrand finished speaking, Metternich of Austria suddenly spoke:

"In fact, we don't need to waste too much time and energy on this place.

"After the tonnage of the capital ship is determined, everyone knows the reasonable tonnage of the cruiser.

"Considering the total tonnage of capital ships and aircraft carriers, 20 tons should be a more appropriate total tonnage for cruisers.

"Countries that don't need so many cruisers, or countries that plan to use other methods to supplement the tonnage of cruisers, don't think about asking countries that have actual needs to give up their reasonable needs.

"Countries with actual needs should also consider the actual situation and international relations, and not put themselves on the opposite side of most countries and be on common guard.

"So let's all take a step back. Don't call it 12 tons, and don't call it 24 tons. Let's set it according to a relatively reasonable standard in theory."

(End of this chapter)